BCAA Supplementation Hinders the Benefits of Truly Fasted Training

by Matthew Caton on April 16, 2012

So you have read all about the benefits of working out in the fasted state, and now you want to try it out for yourself.  There is a very popular protocol that recommends supplementing with 10 grams of branched-chain amino acid (BCAA) pre-workout to prevent the catabolic breakdown of protein during fasted training.  I respectfully and wholeheartedly disagree with using BCAA pre-workout as a supplement to fasted training. If anyone is going to train fasted, then you should actually train fasted.

 

I left part of this as a comment on Marks Daily Apple, but the comment was so long I decided to expound on it more, and make it an article.

 

Loading up with BCAA pre-workout is not a fasted workout, and it makes absolutely no sense from the perspective of an ancestral diet.  In the context of hunter-gatherers, a hunt would take place on empty stomach, because hunts took place exactly because a need for food existed.  Fairly obvious. 

 

What benefits will we see negated with the use of BCAA supplementation pre-workout?

 

First of all, BCAA’s are very insulinogenic, and will jack insulin levels up.  In a bodybuilding roundtable discussion, Alan Argon points out that BCAA's are twice a insulinogenic as pure glucose.  This negates the purpose of fasting or training fasted, as the fasted state is really defined as having low levels of insulin.

 

Secondly, GH and insulin are inversely related, (watch Brad Pilon's brief video on GH, insulin and fat loss), so you will put a damper on GH production at exactly the time when GH is high by increasing insulin, while strength training.

 

Third, by raising insulin levels, you activate the mTOR pathway and you lose the massive health benefits of autophagy when you fast, and train fasted.

 

Mark said this in a recent post on fasted training:

 

A 2009 study found that subjects who lifted weights in a fasted state enjoyed a greater “intramyocellular anabolic response” to the post-workout meal.  Levels of p70s6 kinase – a muscle protein synthesis signaling mechanism that acts like an “indicator” of muscle growth – one hour after a fasted workout doubled levels compared to one hour after a fed workout (in the same group).

 

So my fourth point is a question.

 

Can we say that supplementing with BCAA, or in other words, adding protein pre-workout, would see this doubling of protein synthesis post-workout?

 

Well Martin said this in the breakdown of that study, “Another way to think of it is that by providing nutrients to the body, exercise is experienced by the body as less of a stressor compared to fasted-state training. No need to adapt or compensate when all is provided for you.”

 

A very intuitive statement, and I think that’s our answer. 

 

Now there is a legitimate claim that BCAA supplementation pre-workout spares muscle protein.  Let's look at the study that claims that BCAA is muscle sparing.

 

How much muscle did it spare?

 

Well, first of all, the participants in this study were practically doing cardio for an hour with their quads, so they were probably very susceptible to protein catabolism. Even given that circumstance, how much protein breakdown occurred in an hour of cardio at 70% max effort in the fasted state?

 

816 +/- 198 mumol/kg of BCAA
and
924 +/- 148 mumol/kg of EAA

 

In English that’s 816 micromoles of BCAA and 924 micromoles of EAA per kg of bodyweight.

So if we consider a man of 70 kg, that would mean around 120,000 micromoles of protein released/burned for a healthy man.

 

There are 1,000,000 micromoles in a mole, so we are looking at 12% of one mole of protein lost in the fasted state. How much is that in grams?

 

Well I just considered leucine, C6H13NO2, for the equation.

 

Some of you are saying, "You're still not speaking English." 

 

So, in even more English, that’s roughly 16 grams of protein burned in the fasted state after a one hour of an aerobic workout at 70% maximal effort.

 

How much protein will be burned with a strength training session? Probably much less than that.

 

So, are we going to throw away double the protein synthesis post-workout, the benefits of autophagy, and increases in GH, so that we don’t catabolize less than 16 grams of protein during completely fasted training?

 

I think BCAA supplementation can be used wisely, but not if you are looking for the benefits of truly fasted training.

 

 

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Comments

  • Nick Richardson (Tuesday, April 17 12 12:08 pm EDT)

    After reading Sisson's article on Fasting and seeing your comments against using BcAA's for pre workout supplement I am really pleased u have written this post giving further information.

    Great post!

    Thanks

  • Suley (Wednesday, April 18 12 08:50 pm EDT)

    Nice article. It actually makes alot of sense.
    One question I have though and it is kind of unrelated to your article. Does a big post-workout meal still apply?

  • Matthew Caton (Thursday, April 19 12 11:58 pm EDT)

    Thank you Suley. Do you still need to eat a big post-workout meal to get the benefits of fasted training?

    To get the most benefits as far a strength and muscle, eat a big meal about an hour post-workout. For the health benefits of autophagy and growth hormone, wait a few hours after working out before eating.

    You might be interested in the results of the study below. The participants worked out (not sure if it was fasted training or not) and fasted for 48 hours after that. Even though no food was ingested, they showed an increase in protein synthesis after 48 hours.

    http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/273/1/E99.short

  • earl (Monday, April 23 12 06:13 pm EDT)

    Nice post Matt. I see you have people reading your post too. Good Job!! I lifted completely fasted today and felt great (as opposed to having a scoop of whey protein with water). Will read the rest of them.

  • Adam (Tuesday, April 24 12 09:12 pm EDT)

    What about Martin's referenced study that some BCAA intake right before exercise increases p70s6k phosphorylation:

    http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/287/1/E1.full

    That being said, I think the benefits of fasted training would outweigh the 10g BCAA if it actaully caused such an insulin response - if it's 2X as insulogenic as glucose, then that's 20g of glucose: does that cause a large enough insulin spike to bring a person into the fed state?

  • Matthew Caton (Tuesday, April 24 12 09:57 pm EDT)

    Thank you for asking that question, Adam. No disrespect to you or Martin, but this study is garbage. They only measured protein synthesis for up to two hours post-workout, and they have the cojones to call two hours post-workout a recovery period. I might not even eat for up to two hours after I train.

    Protein synthesis caused by training doesn't even start to increase for up to five hours after training, peaks at roughly 20-28 hours post-workout, and returns to base levels at 36+ hours.

    These researchers knew, they KNEW that. And they still chose to omit studying how BCAA supplementation affected the protein synthesis CAUSED by training. Convenient, right?

    Whose dime do you think paid for this study?

    All these studies are set-up intentionally to make BCAA supplementation look like some kind of miracle worker, but really these they are just marketing to bodybuilders who can't read between the lines.

    By the way, this actually shows exactly why I don't want to train "fasted" with BCAA, because it increases protein synthesis during training.

    Why would the body adapt to synthesize more protein, as with completely fasted training, if the body has an ample supply of amino's synthesizing while training in the not-so-fasted state?

    The kind of insulin released by BCAA is different than glucose, and the line between fasted and fed is fuzzy. I definitely wouldn't call it fasted training.

  • Adam (Tuesday, April 24 12 10:50 pm EDT)

    Thanks for the response. That definitely convinces me. So as for optimal muscle synthesis: fasting after a workout is great for GH release and autophagy, but a high-protein (or high-carb, if doing a refeed) meal 1hr after working out is great for building muscle. So would you advise doing leangains 16hr fast, working out without BCAAs, and sometimes fasting and sometimes eating PWO? How much of each PWO approach a week would you advise for somebody trying to build muscle (like if I worked 3X/week, should one be fasted after and two be fed?) Thanks!

  • Cheshyr (Wednesday, April 25 12 12:33 pm EDT)

    So if I follow all this correctly, the only time BCAA will be a benefit is:
    - You workout completely fasted
    - You delay your PWO meal an hour or two
    - Mixed with your Creatine; consume with the delayed PWO meal

    This would increase the insulin spike which would help with creatine absorbtion.

    As for the 16g angle... that number may become more significant as people approach peak fitness levels. If I remember correctly, long time lifters see significant decreases in muscle gain rate as they bulk up. 16g = ~0.5oz... assuming 3x workouts a week, that's 6oz a month, or 3lbs a year. I don't know if the other benefits will make up that (honest; not sarcasm).

  • Chris (Wednesday, April 25 12 01:01 pm EDT)

    Hi Matt,

    Really interesting article! Was about to pull the trigger on some BCAAs before I read this, but I had a few questions to ask.

    With the relation between GH and insulin, I was just wondering whether you thought the results still apply to non-obese individuals? Maybe it's just that I didn't read it right, but I don't recall the article mentioning a link between GH and insulin levels, only a comparison between obese/control subjects where there were elevated levels of insulin/decreased levels of GH in obese patients. I'm more inclined to think that obese individuals typically have higher levels of insulin and lower levels of GH, and not that one is necessarily linked to the other. If anything, I'd say that the common link between the two is obesity, something that doesn't necessarily apply to those taking BCAAs pre-workout?

    As for your analysis of Martin's analysis (analysis-ception!), I feel your argument is sound. However, I feel that his focus was less on the hinderance of catabolism (which you have focused on in your article) and more so on the stimulation of protein synthesis. While I am quite curious as to why they did not focus on the effects on anabolism over 48 hours (they even reference the same article you did RE: levels of FSR/FBR after resistance exercise), I did find this in the article;

    http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/287/1/E1/F3.large.jpg

    "Resistance exercise increased plasma insulin concentration in all subjects during the placebo and BCAA trials, respectively (Fig. 3). However, the change in plasma insulin concentration during exercise was not significantly different between placebo and BCAA trials. Although plasma insulin concentration was significantly higher during the BCAA trial 2-h recovery period after exercise, this increase is unlikely to be physiologically relevant, because this particular parameter was within normal variability"

    Although, the increase did seem to be reasonable (17microU/mL vs 13microU/mL) on the graph, but I don't really have a good grasp of what level of variation is seen as acceptable and normal.

    As for the anabolic response, I feel that while they did a pretty crap job with the 'recovery period', and while I do agree that many studies are paid for by companies to get results (the article is actually classified as an 'advertisement'), I feel that discrediting the existence of any substantial increase in protein synthesis during an extended recovery period on this basis is premature. It may very well be false and that's why they've left it out, but I don't really know if we can say that for certain.

    My biochemistry and physiology is not excellent and it's not my major, so any response would be greatly appreciated (:

  • Matthew Caton (Wednesday, April 25 12 01:04 pm EDT)

    Adam,

    "Thanks for the response. That definitely convinces me. So as for optimal muscle synthesis: fasting after a workout is great for GH release and autophagy, but a high-protein (or high-carb, if doing a refeed) meal 1hr after working out is great for building muscle."

    You summed it up nicely.

    "So would you advise doing leangains 16hr fast, working out without BCAAs, and sometimes fasting and sometimes eating PWO? How much of each PWO approach a week would you advise for somebody trying to build muscle (like if I worked 3X/week, should one be fasted after and two be fed?) Thanks!"

    As long as you can get in enough calories and protein into and 8 hour feeding window. Some people have a problem eating well above maintenance calories while eating a whole foods diet, so you may need to expand the window.

    Fed training will get you results, but fasted training will get results faster.

  • Matthew Caton (Wednesday, April 25 12 02:10 pm EDT)

    Cheshyr,

    Thanks for your comment.

    My post-workout meal happens anywhere between 1-4 hours, usually 2-3. I do supplement with BCAA post-workout with my food, I don't use creatine though, because of the stomach issues it causes.

    Thank you for bringing up the numbers, because I'd like to clarify a little more on that.

    Assuming that in an hour’s time at the gym you do twenty minutes of working out. 20 minutes time under tension, that’s being generous. So for a typical workout we’re probably looking at a third of the protein they burned during the study, but I’ll give a half.

    So we are looking at 8 grams of protein burned in the fasted state. According to the study, participants supplementing with BCAA saw only 1/3 of the protein loss. So supplementing with BCAA during this typical workout we would see around 3 grams of protein burned, but we’ll just say 2 to be generous.

    So we are actually saving 6 grams of protein, by supplementing with BCAA.

    But all of that seems pretty meaningless when there’s a study showing that people who fasted for up to 48 hours after a workout showed overall increases in protein synthesis after the 48 hours.

    http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/273/1/E99.short

    Shocking, isn’t it? They didn’t eat any food for 48 hours and yet synthesized a net gain of protein. Kind of makes you wonder if 6 grams is much to worry about, especially since you are synthesizing more protein than you are burning even if you don't increase your intake of protein.

    I’ll also add that the study on BCAA’s being muscle sparing did not point out how much protein was synthesized, only what protein was released/burned.

  • Matthew Caton (Wednesday, April 25 12 02:53 pm EDT)

    Chris,

    This was done to show that insulin resistance, or high levels of insulin, are inversely related with growth hormone. I probably didn't pick the best study to exemplify my point, but it's common knowledge that GH is inversely related with insulin. Watch Brad Pilon's video on this. Good stuff. The video also explempifies why I focus on GH, because of it's fat-burning pontential.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6L_E0cEaZw

    Also, here's a good study on growth hormone and fasting.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC329619/pdf/jcinvest00482-0014.pdf

    "I feel that discrediting the existence of any substantial increase in protein synthesis during an extended recovery period on this basis is premature. It may very well be false and that's why they've left it out, but I don't really know if we can say that for certain."

    I think that's why they deliberately chose not to include data past two hours. Of course BCAA user's would see an anabolic response for two hours, they were drinking extremely anabolic amino's.

    You are right that we can't say for certain, but if we waited for people in white coats to tell us things we already know by logic, reasoning, and good intuitive sense, then we really wouldn't be anywhere. Science is usually limited when it comes to certainty. The whole process is based on skepticism, which is a great thing in my opinion, but makes scientific knowledge hard to come by.

  • Flaws (Wednesday, April 25 12 03:31 pm EDT)

    While this might make sense from a purely bodybuilding/dieting perspective, I found out that without BCAAs, my endurance is totally shot, and I have to really, really lower the volume of my training, or I'm pretty much miserable by the end of the first compound of the day. I am a circus acrobat and need both performance and aheshthethichs, so while it might not be "actually fasted training", the benefits of BCAAs certainly outweight everything else.

    Also 10g of BCAAs are only 40kcals, I somewhat doubt that's going to really have that big of an effect on your insulin, but I admit I'm not that knoweledgeable (sp?) about that.

  • Gary (Wednesday, April 25 12 03:40 pm EDT)

    Matthew - what's your take on allowable drinks during the fast, i.e. coffee and water only or diet soda/crystal light etc. ok, and any difference on a rest day vs. prior to a workout with respect to the above?

  • Brian (Wednesday, April 25 12 03:51 pm EDT)

    Really thought BCAAs were taken due to their effect on muscle tissue breakdown....The Fasted State was secondary to keeping muscle tissue. Based on experimentation, I notice a difference in my recovery when I don't take BCAAs either just prior to a workout or the morning after a heavy session.

  • John Davi (Wednesday, April 25 12 07:46 pm EDT)

    I wish you'd not led with "it makes absolutely no sense from the perspective of an ancestral diet." Possibly true, but it hardly carries the weight of the rest of your post. Weightlifting itself isn't an ancestral activity, nor cheeseburgers, etc.

    But that's again not the point. "Paleo" taken to its illogical extreme is eating raw flesh and eschewing light bulbs (and it's why I loathe the term). The point of ancestral-esque health should be to avoid the neolithic elements that do harm, and maintain those -- e.g., lifting heavy things, taking BCAAs perhaps at the appropriate time -- that overall add benefit.

  • Chase (Wednesday, April 25 12 08:24 pm EDT)

    Just out of curiosity: Under optimal conditions, how many hours or days does it take for the body to produce 16 grams of protein (i.e. muscle)?

  • Matthew Caton (Wednesday, April 25 12 10:11 pm EDT)

    Flaws,

    This is from the perspective of bodybuilding, and half the article is about protein synthesis. I would have hoped that it was fairly obvious that people don't go try to train for a marathon fasted. I wouldn't recommend fasted endurance training with or without BCAA's. Endurance training is very catabolic.

    "Also 10g of BCAAs are only 40kcals, I somewhat doubt that's going to really have that big of an effect on your insulin, but I admit I'm not that knoweledgeable (sp?) about that. "

    So that statement is based on your unknowledgeable opinion? I guess we can take that for what it's worth.

    And what is this word?

    "I am a circus acrobat and need both performance and aheshthethichs"

    Are you drunk or something? You really showed me my flaws with your anecdote and your unknowledgable opinion.

    Gary,

    Thank you for your intelligent question. As far as fat loss goes, any non-caloric drink is good. Caffeinated beverages release more epinephrine which is good for fat loss because your body is more sensitive to epinephrine during a fast.
    However, from the standpoint of autophagy, coffee and tea will put a damper on the full benefits of that process.

    Brian and Chase,

    Thanks for your questions. Please read the comments above that are addressed to Cheshyr, and the first response to Adam. That should answer your questions. And Brian, you are correct in your understanding of BCAA's, but that is the view that I'm challenging. I am emphasizing that benefits of the completely fasted state greatly outweigh the benefits of slightly preventing what little protein breakdown occurs with BCAA's. And if you read the response to Cheshyr you can see that that little protein breakdown doesn't even matter because you could fast for 48 hours post-workout and you will see a positive number in terms of protein synthesis.

    John Davi,

    I'm not sure how your wish to define the paleo lifestyle for everyone relates to this article, but I'll address some of your statements.

    Do you know how much an African buffalo weighs?

    "Savannah type buffaloes weigh 500 to 910 kg (1,100 to 2,000 lb), with males, normally larger than females, reaching the upper weight range. A record-sized savannah-type male weighed 1,000 kg (2,200 lb)."

    Sprint after that thing, kill it, chop it into small pieces and your still looking at hundreds of pounds that have to be carried back to camp. Sounds like there might be some weight lifting involved in that.

    All game animals weigh a lot, and they are all over the planet, so it's not isolated to Africa, but I chose that continent for obvious reasons.

    And that cheeseburger is twenty ounces of all-natural angus beef. Don't hate on the burger. That's my cheat meal. and it's fairly paleo. Besides the dairy.

    New evidence suggests "humans" have been cooking for close to a million years, so eating raw meat is not Paleo. Anthropologists believe cooking is what made us the intellectual humans we are today.

    Wear sunglasses at night. Good hack to avoid unwanted hypothalamus stimulation from lightbulbs and screens, plus you'll look cool. Lightbulbs. Problem Solved.

  • John Davi (Wednesday, April 25 12 10:30 pm EDT)

    Yikes, I wish I hadn't written. You further undermine what at least to me seemed like cogent analysis by fixating on the wrong things.

    My point was leading with an "it's not paleo" statement is fairly enervating to an otherwise compelling writeup, and leaves the entire post open to a semantic debate as opposed to the real meat, so to speak. That was my (only) criticism.

  • Chris (Wednesday, April 25 12 11:20 pm EDT)

    Thanks for your response, Matt.

    I watched the video, and that makes sense. My question with regards to that is whether the effect of BCAAs on insulin/growth hormone are really that detrimental.

    You said in your post that by taking BCAAs (and raising insulin levels), "you will put a damper on GH production at exactly the time when GH is high by increasing insulin, while strength training". What I infer from this is that it is important to have GH levels high *during training*, but doing some quick searching (don't have much time with assignments at the moment :c) it doesn't seem to be that necessary to have GH levels high *during* exercise as it reaches its peak after exercise.

    I guess what I'm questioning is whether decreased GH levels *during* training is really that detrimental? I mean, you're experiencing higher GH levels during the fast (in ESE, Brad has a diagram of increased release of GH during the fast) and I don't see a lot of literature (again, in my quick searching) that points to its importance during exercise.

    After exercise, most people following the IF/LG approach will eat a large meal that is insulinogenic already, so even if the insulinogenic nature of the BCAAs carries over to the post-workout period, I don't know if it will make much of an impact considering insulin levels will most likely shoot up post-workout anyway?

    Which brings me to the topic of fasting post-workout. I'm really surprised in this case that there doesn't seem to be a fed-group in the study you linked to measure against. Sure, you might synthesise more protein post-workout, but I question whether that it provides a net benefit *compared* to being in the fed-state post-workout.

  • Earl (Wednesday, April 25 12 11:29 pm EDT)

    Matt, you are correct, while there are many reasons why the human brain expanded; our brains cognitive function did increase when we began cooking our food. This is due to the significant amount of energy our body spared digesting cooked food.

    Gary, I'm recalling from memory so forgive me if I am wrong, but Mark Sisson (www.marksdailyapple.com) has an article on his website about synthetic sugars and insulin spikes. I believe it was an article he wrote that gave a summary about non-caloric sweeteners.

    I drink 16oz of coffee in the morning with 2 tablespoons of half and half. Fat has the least insulin response of the macro-nutrients.

  • Ben (Wednesday, April 25 12 11:40 pm EDT)

    Matt,
    While I'm not convinced one way or another, one part of this puzzle you've omitted yourself is glucagon. Glucagon secretion is promoted by amino acids (especially Arginine and Alanine), but inhibited by glucose.

    Glucagon functions to raise plasma blood sugar by promoting gluconeogenesis and glycogenolysis. In this example of a meal containing nothing but amino acids, blood glucose should remain constant since glucagon and insulin will butt heads and cancel each other out.

    I don't have a conclusion to draw from this, I just wonder what you have to say about it. Thanks,
    Ben

  • Chris (Wednesday, April 25 12 11:52 pm EDT)

    Ben- that might be the case why BCAAs did not elevate insulin levels significantly before exercise?

  • Matthew Caton (Thursday, April 26 12 02:02 pm EDT)

    Chris,

    "You said in your post that by taking BCAAs (and raising insulin levels), "you will put a damper on GH production at exactly the time when GH is high by increasing insulin, while strength training". What I infer from this is that it is important to have GH levels high *during training*, but doing some quick searching (don't have much time with assignments at the moment :c) it doesn't seem to be that necessary to have GH levels high *during* exercise as it reaches its peak after exercise.

    I guess what I'm questioning is whether decreased GH levels *during* training is really that detrimental? I mean, you're experiencing higher GH levels during the fast (in ESE, Brad has a diagram of increased release of GH during the fast) and I don't see a lot of literature (again, in my quick searching) that points to its importance during exercise."

    That may be true if BCAA just dissapeared from your bloodstream, post-workout, but it doesn't. According to the post-workout protein synthesis BCAA study, protein synthesis was elevated for two hours post-workout, so you can bet that insulin was also elevated. If BCAA only put a damper on GH, that might be one, thing, but there are plenty of other reasons to skip it.

    I usually eat 2-3 hours, sometimes 4 hours, post-workout, so insulin is not an issue for me.

    "Which brings me to the topic of fasting post-workout. I'm really surprised in this case that there doesn't seem to be a fed-group in the study you linked to measure against. Sure, you might synthesise more protein post-workout, but I question whether that it provides a net benefit *compared* to being in the fed-state post-workout."

    For the researchers, the point of this study was not to show anything fasting related. The participants just happened to be fasting, and I caught it.

    The point of bringing up this study is to say that the body is not dumb. After you work-out you could go the entire recovery period without eating and still see a net gain in protein synthesis. I'm sure it wasn't much, but the point was they didn't go into some uber-catabolic state and lose all their muscle, by not having a dietary amino supply. So it makes the concern about muscle catabolism during a workout pointless. I am also saying that if these people fast for 48 hours and see a net gain in protein synthesis then imagine how much more protein they would have synthesized if they had been eating a high protein diet post-workout. I am not advocating people fast for 48 hours post-workout.

    Ben and Chris,

    Glucagon occurs in response to glucose, as does insulin, but insulin is not only released by glucose, but amino acids and dietary antioxidants. That glucose is the only thing that triggers an insulin response is a myth perpetuated by low-carbers.

    And you will still see a rise in blood glucose, just from eating a chicken breast. These two hormones are always at work in the blood stream, always, and there are always fluctuations in blood glucose, no matter if protein is ingested or not. You are assuming that glucagon and insulin keep perfect homeostasis all the time which is obviously not the case.

    Thanks for the comments guys.

    Earl,

    Thanks for your comment!

  • TheBodyGuard (Friday, June 01 12 10:49 pm EDT)

    Matthew thanks for all the analysis and replies. Playing with the LG fasting and found your analysis relative to the BCAA's interesting and thought provoking. As a strength athlete that's interested in body composition improvements too, I was wondering if you felt there was a "sweet spot" for the post workout meal which takes optimizes any GH response while fasted but also takes advantage of the increased protein synthesis. You referenced a study that indicated protein synthesis remained elevated for up to 48 hours after a workout which would seem to indicate that post meal timing (except for GH response) is not that critical? Am I correct? So is there a "sweet spot" for maximizing GH AND building muscle? Or is cycling an "either/or" approach a better choice (concentrating on body composition by means of exploiting the GH response - delaying post workout meals, alternated with cycles of BCAA pre workout supplementation and not delaying the post workout meal?). Hope I was clear :) LOL

  • james (Monday, June 04 12 01:56 pm EDT)

    I'm curious about the "sweetspot" also. Is drinking fresh squeezed lemon in your water through your fasting period going to negate your benifits?

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